99 replies to this topic

[Koujo]

This is not a troll. I've played off and on for a long time now. I've only played IS mechs and never really took the time to learn about clan mechs. What disadvantages do they have that counter balance their crazy number of hardpoints and alpha damage?

[KahnWongFuChung]

Because those lame PGI decision makers ruined my timberwolfs to a point there garbage I want back what I paid for a totally OP timberwolf that it takes3-5 IS mechs to kill it like it was when it was first released.

That's the way it was in Battletech lore and MechWarrior games =( SO RUSS WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE FOOL)

[Queen of England]

IS has better quirks, lower laser duration, better heat efficiency, while clans have higher damage and better range, basically.

[Revis Volek]

How can you say something is OP when you have never even drove it yourself?


Some IS mechs are stronger then Clans for a multitude of reasons some clans are stronger then IS for reasons. But as a whole the IS out weighs the Clans by a long shot.

The only REAL thing they have going for them still that IS just doesnt have a counter/equivalent to the is CXL. I can assure you after playing both (A LOT) playing in two separate units (one Clan and one IS) they both have there strengths and weakness' but to say Clan is OP is very far off base.

Some are better some arent , same goes with the IS.

Edited by Revis Volek, 05 June 2016 - 08:17 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Their lasers run hotter, which actually isn't as big of a deal as the Clan-apologists will let on. The bigger deal is that their lasers are linked for ghost heat. Where IS can fire six Medium Laser and four Small Laser and trigger no ghost, the Clans will.

Their lasers also only have 1.7x the indicated reach on their Medium and Small class lasers while the Inner Sphere have 2x. Against the quirked IS 'Mechs, it typically results in a wash performance-wise in real-world application.

Clan lasers also have longer burns. Against unquirked IS lasers, they have superior damage per second of burn, but against quirked ones they are either about the same or worse. This means that it is harder for the Clan pilot to distribute damage around his 'Mech while the IS pilot has it easier.

Clan SRMs spread out a lot more and do slightly less damage. This compels Clans to get closer to deal the damage efficiently and almost mandates Artemis IV, tilting the performance-per-ton advantage to the IS.

Clan OmniMechs can't swap out engines, ferro armor, endosteel, and some other miscellaneous equipment, meaning some are good while others are stuck being bad.

Clan auto-cannons fire their rated damage over bursts, allowing targets to spread the damage around in small chunks while IS auto-cannons dump their entire amount into a single shot. IS auto-cannons are extremely damage-efficient, Clans are not.

[Moldur]

I'd say everyone above did a pretty good job at giving the short of it. To reply to

Koujo, on 05 June 2016 - 08:08 AM, said:

[...]counter balance their crazy number of hardpoints and alpha damage?

Assuming a ton of hardpoints and alphas are all that makes a mech good is short-sighted. The DPS of a 33 damage alpha can still be higher than a higher damage alpha depending on heat and cooldown. It is amazing how many people will get fooled by an alpha that takes 70% of my heat. Instead of coming over and killing me outright while I overheat if I shoot back, they take the full alpha and go "Oh man that is scary, don't want that again," return to cover, and wait for my heat to go down before peeking again. Yes, those people probably think my mech is OP because they play right into my hands every match.

Revis Volek, on 05 June 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

How can you say something is OP when you have never even drove it yourself?

He isn't. He is asking a question. The way it is phrased, however, makes it sound like the baseline assumption is that they are OP, but that is an inference made on our part.

[Cy Mitchell]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 June 2016 - 08:17 AM, said:

Their lasers run hotter, which actually isn't as big of a deal as the Clan-apologists will let on. The bigger deal is that their lasers are linked for ghost heat. Where IS can fire six Medium Laser and four Small Laser and trigger no ghost, the Clans will.

Their lasers also only have 1.7x the indicated reach on their Medium and Small class lasers while the Inner Sphere have 2x. Against the quirked IS 'Mechs, it typically results in a wash performance-wise in real-world application.

Clan lasers also have longer burns. Against unquirked IS lasers, they have superior damage per second of burn, but against quirked ones they are either about the same or worse. This means that it is harder for the Clan pilot to distribute damage around his 'Mech while the IS pilot has it easier.

Clan SRMs spread out a lot more and do slightly less damage. This compels Clans to get closer to deal the damage efficiently and almost mandates Artemis IV, tilting the performance-per-ton advantage to the IS.

Clan OmniMechs can't swap out engines, ferro armor, endosteel, and some other miscellaneous equipment, meaning some are good while others are stuck being bad.

Clan auto-cannons fire their rated damage over bursts, allowing targets to spread the damage around in small chunks while IS auto-cannons dump their entire amount into a single shot. IS auto-cannons are extremely damage-efficient, Clans are not.

Good analysis.

What it all comes down to is that Clans are no longer over powered when compared to IS Mechs. There is perhaps one Clan Mech at present that is as strong or slightly stronger than its IS counterparts. The rest of best of the Clan Mechs are equal or slightly less powerful than the best the IS can offer in the same weight class. If you name any Clan Mech there is an IS counterpart that is equal to it or slightly better. Even the "all powerful" Kodiak KDK-3 is arguably not much better than the Atlas AS7 or the Mauler MX90 in game.

[Monkey Lover]

Queen of England, on 05 June 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

IS has better quirks, lower laser duration, better heat efficiency, while clans have higher damage and better range, basically.

Duration is about the same when you count the dmg per second. Heat is about the same again when you count the clan weapons basically come with dhs because they're less weight.

Clans have the clan XL engine, 2slot dhs,less slot weapons,1ton target computer(basically quirks) and case everywhere.

IS has quirks and nice AC weapons.

I find it's the most balanced it's been in a long time.

[DAYLEET]

Are we seeing IS mech in the tournament yet? What i saw was TBR HBR Kodiak, Jenner iic, HBK iic and a few SCR ACH. I didnt see anyone really use the better weapon placement of the HBK iic and the SCR is just objectively better imo, as is the TBR and Kodiak, nothing compares.

[Clementine]

Don't bother bro. You are going to attract so many Inner Sphere trolls that cannot comprehend they have zero skill and are only good because of quirks that it will just continue forever.

[Monkey Lover]

DAYLEET, on 05 June 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

Are we seeing IS mech in the tournament yet? What i saw was TBR HBR Kodiak, Jenner iic, HBK iic and a few SCR ACH. I didnt see anyone really use the better weapon placement of the HBK iic and the SCR is just objectively better imo, as is the TBR and Kodiak, nothing compares.

I am seeing a mix of the best for both sides. IS side oxides,grasshoppers,Warhammer,black knights and griffins. No IS assaults at this point other than 1 atlas.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 05 June 2016 - 09:07 AM.

[xWiredx]

DAYLEET, on 05 June 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

Are we seeing IS mech in the tournament yet? What i saw was TBR HBR Kodiak, Jenner iic, HBK iic and a few SCR ACH. I didnt see anyone really use the better weapon placement of the HBK iic and the SCR is just objectively better imo, as is the TBR and Kodiak, nothing compares.

Who in their right mind would take a Hellbringer over a Black Knight, Grasshopper, or Warhammer? Those three IS mechs are vastly superior. I'd also take a Griffin or even a Blackjack over a Hunchback IIC.

I think when it comes down to the later stages, we're going to see a lot of IS meta+quirk abuse mechs. Right now it's probably more mixed because of volume of teams.

[Mcgral18]

Also blanket nerfs

[DAYLEET]

Monkey Lover, on 05 June 2016 - 09:06 AM, said:

I am seeing a mix of the best for both sides. IS side oxides,grasshoppers,Warhammer,black knights and griffins. No IS assaults at this point other than 1 atlas.

So far only seen one vid that was linked in the forum. Im watching another one right now and im seeing a mix of what passes as meta in pug queue which is BK/Grasshoper/2N except for warhammer that seems to be popular so far.

xWiredx, on 05 June 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

. I'd also take a Griffin or even a Blackjack over a Hunchback IIC.

Yeah i dunno why the hbk iic is so popular but id take the old fashioned crow over it for sure.

xWiredx, on 05 June 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

Who in their right mind would take a Hellbringer over a Black Knight, Grasshopper, or Warhammer?

Those that wouldnt take a TBR in the first place.

Edited by DAYLEET, 05 June 2016 - 09:16 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

xWiredx, on 05 June 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

Who in their right mind would take a Hellbringer over a Black Knight, Grasshopper, or Warhammer? Those three IS mechs are vastly superior. I'd also take a Griffin or even a Blackjack over a Hunchback IIC.

I think when it comes down to the later stages, we're going to see a lot of IS meta+quirk abuse mechs. Right now it's probably more mixed because of volume of teams.

Blackjack is not a dominant 'Mech any more. The face-time from the classic 6ML+2MPL BJ-1X is too much, making 6xMPL more common and, due to the shorter range, more niche. Alternatively, I think it is actually a solid brawler with SPL and a STD engine, just don't miss.

The BJ-3, frankly, was always too hot for comps with 3xLPL. It was used simply because other options hadn't been discovered, yet. Very little has changed since it was king of the hill, so I can't conclude that it was ever truly the best. It was a good PUG farmer, but it can't cut it in the hyper-aggressive meta solution we currently have. Personally, I actually think it has a better niche pop-tarting with PPCs to break a Power Position strat.

[Monkey Lover]

DAYLEET, on 05 June 2016 - 09:13 AM, said:

So far only seen one vid that was linked in the forum. Im watching another one right now and im seeing a mix of what passes as meta in pug queue which is BK/Grasshoper/2N except for warhammer that seems to be popular so far.

Ahh check out the Pgi twitch pages you can watch the streams they did for the last few days. I been liking them.

https://www.twitch.t...hagames/profile

[Steve Pryde]

To make it short why IS mechs are better at the moment:

- quirks
- laser beam durations
- better lrms (cause of quirks and firing in one salvo and not in a stream)
- better ppcs (cause of quirks)
- better ACs (cause pinpoint-dmg)

Edited by Steve Pryde, 05 June 2016 - 09:21 AM.

[DAYLEET]

Monkey Lover, on 05 June 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

Ahh check out the Pgi twitch pages you can watch the streams they did for the last few days. I been liking them.

https://www.twitch.t...hagames/profile

yeah im watcing and skiping some now. Im seeing....weird choices sometimes but i guess some people are more comfortable with their usual mech of choice and possibly weight limit and tactics also dictate those choices with their limiting factor.

[Y E O N N E]

Steve Pryde, on 05 June 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:

To make it short why IS mechs are better at the moment:

- quirks
- laser beam durations (bringing most IS lasers in line with their Clan counterparts on damage-per-tick)
- better lrms (cause of quirks) (wat, no, way too heavy)
- better ppcs (cause of quirks) (Not that IS PPCs are currently dominating anything, but Clans have targeting computer, +5 extra splash damage that stacks and can make the difference on a miss)
- better ACs (cause pinpoint-dmg) (IS hands-down but mind the weight and size)

Each side is situationally better. Clans can actually sling more damage around at range with PPCs, and do it with significantly better agility, but the IS can keep up the fire longer. Lasers, Clans win at 450-600 meters. IS win at 0-450 meters. From 600-900? Really hard to say, it usually comes more down to timing and positioning than it does 'Mechs and weapons.

IS ACs are better more often than not, but again the agility part comes into play. I can't run around with four AC/10 at 62 kph on any 'Mech. I can run around with two at 81, but that's pretty much the entirey of my firepower and I'm going to run super hot if I throw on lasers.

So, yeah. Give and take.

[zagibu]

Moldur, on 05 June 2016 - 08:49 AM, said:

It is amazing how many people will get fooled by an alpha that takes 70% of my heat. Instead of coming over and killing me outright while I overheat if I shoot back...

So, the other 11 players in your team won't shoot at me if I come over to kill you?